I'm confused and to be honest, quite disappointed. There are plenty of couples out there who have fertility issues, who for a variety of reasons have a double income and no kids - chief among them that even supposedly middle class couples have one paycheck being entirely absorbed by rent. That means paycheck #2 is dedicated to necessities, savings or paying back a student loan if you're lucky, and maybe after all that, something fun.

I would also like to point out that plenty of people plan for a child, would love a child, and then lose multiple children. These couples look functionally NO different than the couples you denigrate here. So they turn to having pets and travel! It's no business of yours why that is, the truth may be heartbreaking, and it's unacceptably rude to assume that their lives are less fulfilling or less meaningful than yours just because you're having kids.

This episode was a very clear "think before you speak" opportunity and neither of you did. I wish you all the best in your pregnancy and child rearing, but I dearly hope you don't express these opinions around people whose fertility struggles make life hard. Your judgment doesn't make anything easier for them. Compassion is key.

Not strawman arguments, not elevating ourselves and our choices above that of others, but thinking and speaking in love towards others.

PS - raising a dog is grossly underestimated here. You must provide limits and discipline. How your dog behaves or doesn't reflects on you, albeit in not as serious a way as a child. They are not self sustaining or self monitoring. I don't think the two should have been compared at all. Especially since some people's kids will developmentally "never grow up", it was a poor comparison.

Wishing you all the best.

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Nov 12, 2022·edited Nov 12, 2022

Lee, I agree with everything you said. I also think it needs to be acknowledged that some people (and this in no way means they are automatically "bad" or irresponsible) are just not cut out to have kids/would not make good parents. That's not attacking the traditional family; it's just being realistic. To make a blanket statement that every person, regardless of background or personality, needs to make children a goal is in my opinion just as out of touch as people who say every woman should want to prioritize her career before a family. Urging people to think very carefully about these kinds of decisions is not in any way an attack on the traditional family.

Also: Y'all say a negative aspect of the DINK lifestyle is that it's causing families to get smaller, but what in the world is wrong with/"non-traditional" about having only one or two kids? You seem to be implying that those families are not as "amazing" as larger ones. I'm not trying to degrade parents who choose to have more kids, but having a smaller family can mean that those kids get more personal attention from both parents AND there is more money to invest in each child individually (for things like music lessons, summer camp, private school if the parents choose that route, vacations that are not just fun luxuries but actually provide kids with a wider worldview and cultural enrichment, etc.). Bigger family does not automatically equal better family. One of my best friends growing up was the oldest of six kids, and as a young teenager she was already being pressured/forced to basically co-parent her younger siblings, give up the athletic team she really loved because she was needed at home after school, etc. She was miserable, and it also caused her to develop a lot of resentment towards both her parents and her younger siblings. Kids deserve to have time, attention, and their own identities, and there is nothing wrong with having a smaller family to ensure that that can be provided to every child equally. On the contrary, it's a responsible decision. This podcast really comes across as y'all making a judgment about what is morally/objectively correct and right for everyone based solely on what you think a family should look like from the outside, with little to no serious consideration of other situations and circumstances.

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You seem to assume that anyone who chooses not to have children is doing it for luxuries and entertainment. DINK is often a choice to help develop the local community, or be a mentor to others, or supporting/organizing school programs. This isn't ruining traditional families, it's the reason traditional families can exist. This episode talks about DINKs being elitists, but strikes me as inherently elitist itself.

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I see a lot of resentment in a few of my friends who have kids. Kids to them is another check box in life.... something they just do. They lead a very upper middle class lifestyle as DINK and then when the kids were born it turns into whining they can't go out to eat much, they can't afford to shop at Macy's anymore, they had to let their cleaning service go to " afford" kids. One friend in particular wanted children so badly and went through expensive fertility treatments with her husband, claiming all she ever wanted in her life was her own biological child or she would be miserable and unfulfilled. Within weeks of her son's birth she insisted on going back to work saying they "NEEDED" the money. Her husband has a six figure job! Apparently they "NEEDED" a Benz, a 4K square foot house. She is always leaving her son with her parents, sitters, in-laws-- anyone-- to go to work to avoid raising her kids-- or to do things people without kids can do easily. Its baffling to me that someone wants a child this badly and then yearns for the lifestyle she had with her husband without kids? DINK really does set unreasonable lifestyle standards and mentally these folks turn " wants" ( vacations, nights out on the town) into " needs" that they are being "Deprived of" because of their children. Wowza.

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Kids or no kids, you should still protect your income. Some couples choose not to have children, some choose to. It is a choice that needs to be made between both people in the relationship. I have seen so many couples in all types of religious movements or ones that don’t have faith with kids and no kids being happy.Some people choose not to because of the trauma they had faced in their lives. Some people dream of having kids and have kids in some way. It should is something that should not be judged either way. I did enjoy listening to this podcast, Abby and Jacob! Happy Hanukkah, I cannot wait for it and I cannot believe how soon it is!

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